All general questions, comments and requests for post topics can be sent to...
And visit the Facebook fan page at...
Facebook Fan Club


"Faith is not a good reason to believe in any one thing. It's a bad reason to believe in everything. Faith is not synonymous with any one idea; it is synonymous with any strongly held idea, true or not. But one thing faith is not synonymous with is a logically justified idea."

August 8, 2010

The Danger of Achieving Higher Education Before Gaining Simple Logic

The First Rule of Logic: The Argument from Higher Education-
Your education means little to nothing. Education is information. Without the ability to employ proper logic to process the information you are still illogical and unintelligent. Higher education means nothing, it does not trump all those with lower educations and if you invoke your education as an argument you lose automatically, that's why it's a logical fallacy.

(The following is the complete transcript of an online debate I recently had on Facebook. If you would be so kind, please read the transcript's entirety and let me know who you think won, who is the more logical, and what do you think of my opponent. My posts are in bold, those of my opponent are in normal font, while those of third parties are in italics...)

Facebook Status August 08, 2010:
Alexander M Haile (author) is watching the South Park episode "The Return of Chef" where Matt and Trey make fun of Scientology for the one millionth time.

You know, when I think about it, I can count on one hand the # of agnostic individuals I've met through the years. Its not as rampant nor ubiquitous as one my think. Its actually quite esoteric 2ndary to its impracticality. Have a great rest of your weekend, AMH! (referring to a coversation we had earlier of the use of the title "agnostic" and it's illogical implications)

One hand? How many people do you know? I can count them if you gave me an abacus.

ahahha! I probably know more than you... how old are you? The difference between you and I is within your quest for spiritual reflection from the masses. I just don't care what others think...

Spiritual reflection?... I care what others think because what they believe informs their actions, actions which have dire consequences within the society I live in. We all live in the same reality, whether we like it or not, and within this reality we are bound by simple rules. Trying to pretend you live in a different reality is divisive and dangerous. The best way to deal with reality is on reality's terms.

Ok, all you've achieved is awareness of what they think. It stops there. What do you plan to do with this information?

If I can't change them, and I have changes many, then the least I can do is learn what it is they believe in order to help myself predict their actions and dodge the inevitable consequences. I've brought a few people from religious delusion and back to reality. Even if through my entire life I only deconvert one person, it's worth it.

Ok. Cool. I'm not interested in putting effort towards that, but you go nutz! ahahah! Don't be let down when they turn on you and do their own thing without your guidance... (sarcasm) I dig your plight, but I see it as a loosing battle... plus, I don't care what others think. I know my place in life.. Rock On, AMH!

So you're an apatheist. Regardless of personal belief you find no reason to care what others believe or why. That's fine for some, but it is necessary to see the merit in debating against illogical ideas. If we simply allowed illogical ideas where would we be? For every hundred atheists/agnostics who are apathetic towards the grand debate between logic and illogic, there must be at least one who is willing to join the debate.

Look, I don't judge you, but if you want to get nasty, pack a lunch. You can't change anyone, nor should try. Live and let live. Don't ever label me again.

Can't change anyone? I've changed. I deconverted my roommate a few years back. Dan Barker was a fundamentalist Christian minister until he gave up religion. People do change, often. Whether or not they are listening and receptive to reason is the key. Saying people don't change is possibly the dumbest thing anyone could ever claim. Sure, some genetic or non-deliberate mental aspects of a person might not be able to change, but people's concepts change. Their beliefs change.

Fuck it. You're a fanatic. I have no respect for fanatics. Go obscess about something important...

So you just don't like labels? You prefer to be one of those liberal people who claim they're unable to be labeled? Too bad, we all fit into labels. I lack belief in a God, I'm an atheist. Sam Harris lacks belief in a God, he's an atheist. Though he prefers the title of Bright, he's still an atheist whether likes it or not.

I just don't care... You cannot win this debate with me...

I'm not fanatic about anything, unless it's possible to be fanatic about logic and reality, in which case I am a fanatic. I'm fanatic about logic, and where I don't see it I point it out. You're a new-age liberal thinker with stupid illogical unrealistic ideas which you only possess because you think it makes you unique and special. You're not. You're just another illogical person who has customized his illogical ideas to make himself feel comfortable in a world he can't understand since he's too apathetic and stupid to try to understand it. I don't have to win if you're not going to fight back... I'll simply walk up to your hill and plant my flag without any resistance. You're so illogical that you don't even see how you're not really deciding not to argue, you're unable to argue. You don't know how.

You are transferring your insecurity which stems from an illequipped solidarity onto others in search of something that I can't provide. You have know idea who I am; from this, you've unconsciously constructed a veil of hypocrisy - that which you're aimlessly arguing against. Don't you see the oxymoron within the context? You're not as smart as you think , but you are more tenacious than most. Be nice..or fuck off

"Be nice..or fuck off" Says the guy commenting on someone else's status. Delete him if you don't like what he says?

I'm not that obstinate, Karleigh. Plus, this has nothing to do with you. Address me, not the situation...

You use a lot of smart sounding words, but they don't stick. I used "stupid" and "illogical" which could easily stick given what I know of you from our discussions here on Facebook. So I may not know who you are, but I know enough to make t...hose claims. You're using "illequipped solidarity" and "unconsciously constructing a veil of hypocrisy" which don't make sense together and are far too reaching for what you know of me given that we've only talked on Facebook. You're trying to use buzz words to make your argument rather than actually making an argument. Also, the word is "subconsciously" since "unconsciously" would mean I'm doing something either in my sleep or dead, which isn't possible. There is no Oxymoron in this context, there's only a moron. One who likes to use big words to attack a person he doesn't know, but brushes off attacks on himself by claiming his attacker doesn't know him. I don't have to be nice. I have no moral, legal, ethical or social obligation to compliment your fragile sensibilities. Karleigh... this has everything to do with you, assuming you agree with one side or the other... feel free to jump in with me, or against me, if you feel like it. My page is your page.

Cause and effect - "ill... " is the cause; "uncons.." is the effect. This is psychology 101... No, I meant unconsciously... Your dreams have a big impact on your psyche...You attacked me, Alexander... review the posts and you will see.
...Cool. We don't see eye to eye. move on

It's Facebook, Eric. Nothing is private. Everyone comes on here knowing that they are giving up their right to privacy. Plus, I actually was directly addressing you and not commenting on your conversation with Alex. Oh, and thanks Alex! Sam...e to you, but my page is pretty boring haha.

Ok, what is your take on the subject, Karleigh? Rather than your unwarranted appraisal of my response.. I see, now, that Alexander needs a buddy to handle me... interesting...

Wait?... I attacked you?... I posted about watching South Park, and you came on to discuss how there are so few agnostics, refuting one of my claims... you attacked me, although I wouldn't really use the word "attacked"... I prefer "engaged"... So now my dreams make me who I am? The last dream I had I was sitting in the living room and my roommate's girlfriend was arguing with him in their room and he came out and we went to Paris (I hate Paris)... what does that have to do with my opinions? You don't really believe in dream interpretation, do you?

I don't have a take. I just noticed that you were telling someone to fuck off on their own page. I thought it was funny. Oh, and Alex can handle himself just fine, definitely doesn't need me! :)

Eric... I welcomed her to join your side too, but your side just lacks the sort of logic Karleigh likes, I assume. Karleigh... thanks. I think I can handle a new-age liberal apatheist spiritual free thinker who believes in dream interpretation.

"Apatheist" is the best term ever haha. Dream interpretation? Eek. Logical black hole there.

"Apatheist" - that's an attack.. I was simply reflecting. You were trying to convert me into something in which I was already taking part. So, that had to be an attack. When I warned you against the nastiness, you continued, and so I had t...o offer my candor... Be well. 

I usually won't use the term apatheist, since it doesn't distinguish between an apathetic atheist or an apathetic theist. Although, theists are rarely apathetic about their beliefs, and too many atheists are apathetic.

Can you label me without utilizing neologisms.?. go grab your dictionary..

You yourself said that you didn't care what people thought or believed, that people couldn't change, that it didn't matter to you. That's an apatheist. Simply because you fit a label doesn't mean someone's trying to attack you. Get over it hippie, labels aren't bullets. No one is trying to pin your down to a label but yourself. It's not my fault you fit the definition. Can you say anything in favor of your beliefs and opinions without resorting to big words and hippie logic?

I concur with your latest arguement.


I don't care if you label me so long as the label fits. If I think it doesn't fit, we can debate it. If it doesn't properly fit and yet there's no good label to take its place, then we can come up with one. I'm not afraid of being labeled. I'm afraid of being illogical.

Those words aren't mine. They are yours, as well. I love how you judge my eloquence. it speaks volumes

I don't mind eloquence. I mind smug assertions taped onto words in contexts that make no sense. You remind me of the anti-evolutionists, who can't support their own claims with logic so they decide to attack evolution instead. Your position... is so illogical you've learned not to support it in debate because you can't, so instead you just attack your opponent and try to claim that somehow he/she is unable to understand because of some inherent misunderstanding or misconception. I understand your words, I just don't understand the way in which you're using them. You've already invoked my damned dreams, as though they have something to do with this. Where else will you go?

You're unable to understand because you need a dictionary and years of education to keep up with me and your words... duh? You said it. I've achieved more awards and stature from my written discourse than you could ever comprehend. I know you don't understand. So, stop arguing something you don't understand. Your definition of logic is unfounded and without merit. You need to go back to school if you want to toe the line with the big boys...

If I may interject, can I ask what "kaleidoscopic" political views are?

look it up, Karleigh... a splintered view with a spectrum of colors... so the source is not solidly reflected upon...

My definition of logic? Sorry, I didn't define logic. It's not my creation. It has rules, ones that are older than either of us. There is no such thing as personal logic. Your kung-fu is not better than my kung-fu... Who the fuck cares abou...t your awards and stature? I debate theologians on a daily basis. People with what they consider to be legitimate college degrees, I make them look like children. You're an apatheist, where they hell do you get your debate practice from? You said yourself you don't care! I don't give a fuck about your education, it means nothing without logic skills, of which you have none. Invoking one's education and awards is an argument from authority and merit, it's one of the most common logical fallacies. But you seem not to know that, since you just invoked your own. Good job, trying to say that my personal definition of logic is unfounded and without merit when there's no such thing as personal definitions of logic and merit has no place in logic. You're obviously unaware of what logic is... Like a kaleidoscope... the child's play thing.

You're an idiot, Alexander. Where do you think logic exists? Not in your mind, obviously. education... can you spell that?

As a feminist, I also take issue with the phrase "big boys". 

ok, Karleigh, that was transparent.

Education doesn't breed logic. You fail again. If education was the key to logic then smart college grads wouldn't make such stupid fucking decisions. 

My built-in sarcasm detector is broken.

You're obviously confusing logic with education. Education is information, which is useless without logic. They're two separate things. I don't care how much education you have, you are illogical. All the information in the world couldn't make your dumbass intelligent.

No, you've failed miserably.. The only reason you have a forum is because you have a disbelief in the written Bible...or anyother analogous form of religion... grab your dictionary.

What does that have to do with anything? 

I can't wait to post this conversation to my blog and my notes. Someone who thinks their education is actual logic! Wow!... Priceless! Education is information, logic is how we process the information. Imagine a computer with a whole lot of ...memory filled with very useful information, but it has no processing ability. What do we call that? It's a hard drive, not a real computer. It holds information but cannot process it to make the information practically useful. That's your brain. Logic and education are two separate things.

The only reason Karleigh is still engaged is because I'm damned good-lookin' and I'm well spoken.. ahahha!

You keep saying "grab your dictionary" or "look it up" but we understand the definitions of the words you're using, we just don't see how they make and point within the context you use them. We have a vocabulary, Eric. We just don't see what the fuck you're trying to say. But that's the problem with being illogical, everything you say is based on unstandardized subjective bullshit.

I actually haven't found any definitions of "kaleidoscopic political views" yet either, if you could point me to a particular site?

Yeah,'re futile approach convert others into something I believe in is your first strike... the fact that you have a limited education is your 2nd strike... the fact that you are questioning someone's education only proves that you have none and have decreed yourself the authority on transparency... Great job! go to my profile, Karleigh.. If not, try this.. see if you can connect the definition of Kaliedoscopic within politics... I know, its a stretch to connect the dots.

Questioning someone's education proves you have none? I'm the polite one out of Alex and I, but I have to ask what planet you're from.

I didn't question your education, I only pointed out that it's ultimately irrelevant in this situation. It's sad that we have someone with higher education but no logic skills thinking he has better opinions on a subject than someone with moderate education and higher logic skills when the person has already admitted he doesn't care and doesn't deal in these issues. You're out of your element and still you think your irrelevant education gives you some special claim to the debate that trumps anything anyone else says! That's very egotistical of you.

I love the factions. two against one.

I'm not an idiot, you don't need to patronise me. I can connect your stupid dots, I was just looking for a page that would give me specifics. You obviously can't provide it. Is it something you made up?

The kaleidoscope thing was merely metaphor.

Ok... rule # 1 in logic. We must all stick to the same postulates. You don't understand my choice of words b/c you're without education... so, it goes... you cannot understand my logic...

He can't offer any specifics because he doesn't have any ability to process the information he has. He's illogical, he only holds information long enough to spit it out at people and then think less of them because they don't have the same information already. Sorry Eric, we couldn't all go to a hippie liberal college.

I thought so. None of the pages I found even had the words next to each other. You could have just said that Eric, but you wanted to make me feel like an idiot apparently. Bad luck on that one.

You should try to spell words correctly, as well.

Rule #1 in logic is your education is irrelevant. Stop invoking your own education as though it gives you free reign to dismiss everyone else but yourself.

What word have I misspelled?

You have no arguement against education, Alex.

I didn't say education was crap, I'm not attacking it. It's simply irrelevant in a debate. Have you ever seen two people get on stage to debate a topic and they just whip out their degrees and compare them till they decide who is more educated and then everyone just delegates to his opinions? Nope.

Well, I've been enrolled in 8 colleges in 3 states. I have a well rounded education... You should, too. No, Alex, but I noticed you couldn't keep up with my eloquence...

You've been ENROLLED? How impressive. If you'd graduated, it would be even more impressive.

I already explained why I didn't like your eloquence. The words you use mean nothing if when put together they don't make sense.

They don't make sense to you, but the rest of the world, save you and Karleigh, are acting like a couple of adolescents in the throes of achieving some sort of independence... from who, I'm unsure... good luck, kiddos.

Maybe you're just used to people thinking you sound smart and awesome, Eric. But I have to admit, your very first comment was a mystery to me, as was its relevance to Alex's status.

sorry - are not acting like a couple of.. that's an addedum to the aforementioned comment... go grab your lexicon

The rest of the world they make sense to? That's funny, I thought it wouldn't make sense to anyone unless they had an education equal to or greater than yours, since education is the deciding factor in logic, right? You're the most dangerous type of illogical person alive... the sort of person who thinks his illgoc is logic simply because a professor told him it was.

Yes! Finally! you get it! Logic is predicated on education! Especially within this venue! All we have are words.. I'm much better than you two..

Eric is very smug. That's one of the problems with higher education, you begin to think less of everyone without one. You forget that education is only the means to gaining information, not becoming truly intelligent. He actually thinks he can dismiss people's opinions simply because they haven't been to college like he has. I was being sarcastic, Eric. Logic is not dependent upon education, that's the first major rule of logic. I've already explained this. You cannot possibly be this dense?

Apparently your sarcasm detector is broken too, Eric. Are you some sort of troll?

I think the world of you and Karleigh... I just don't care about your appraisal of me...and this bothers you..

I wish I could be a hippie liberal apathetic free thinking new-age moron too... then I could be free to agree or disagree with anyone I want simply based on whether or not the things they speak are synonymous with my own personal subjective opinions on personal truth. What freedom you must have to be able to make shit up as you go.

There is quite a gulf between "knowledge" and "intelligence". There is also more than one kind of intelligence. 

I wish you could have an objective view of your shitty attitude... who kicked your ass? You have issues. Later.

Why should you give a shit about me? You don't know me at all haha. Certainly I don't particularly care for you.

Say it again, Alex... the hippie thing.. you'll be dreaming about it tonight and hating me tomorrow...

Subjective view of my shitty attitude?... I don't give a shit about most things subjective, because I'm logical and logic deals in the objective.

objective! can you read? You guys are a joke

Eric, I implore you, please go read a book on logic. You're a danger to yourself and anyone who delegates their opinions to you.

You're a tool that I'm gonna expose to all my friends. Good luck. Thanks for the threesome, though. ...idiots.

Sure, just lump us together. Another logical fallacy.

He doesn't really know what those are.

Oh right. And assuming your "exposing" Alex will have actually have an effect on him is so sad but funny. You've got a really high opinion of yourself.

He'll probably bring people to my blog and make me more famous.

I'm setting up charges of libelous conduct against you two... who's the logical one? its too late... no going back. I've printed everything out. BTW, I'm a Rock Star with nothing but time and $.

Libelous?... It's not libel if we have an opinion of you based on conversations we have recorded and documented. It's not against the rules to call you a moron... so you're the illogical one.

No, you've defamed my name plenty within this post, and I warned you against it...

Yep... ok well. I'm going out tonight (live music yayyy) and this was a reasonable way to pass the time until I had to leave (soon), so have fun with that Eric, and don't forget that it's enrolling in college that makes you special!

Grab an attorney on your way out, Karleigh! ahahha!

There's no rule against defaming you for something which we can prove occurred. You really think there's a rule against calling you a moron?

This is where education plays a part, Alex.

Facebook libel suit? Wow... that's very funny.

No, its real.

Can everyone see this? Anyone who cares to weigh in... try your luck.

No one else is stupid to get into this..You're toast...guess what? I win!

Well if you want to sue me I might as well say everything I want to...
You're a new-age liberal moron who thinks his higher education makes him not only smarter but also more special than his fellow human beings. Your willful ignorance and exuberant smugness make you a danger to yourself and those close to you. You're a fool of the highest regard. Also, to think you can claim libel for something that occurred on my own page which you willfully acted upon is ridiculous. You're a major tool and you can't even see it. Fuck you, Eric, you stupid self centered fuck.


J. Barrett Wolf said...

Wow, what an amazing bit interchange.

Apparently, this guy is unaware that the working definition of communication is 'message sent, same message received.' He postulates and pontificates but refuses to define terms and concepts for the huddled masses with whom he is deigning to speak.

I am glad you have both time and tolerance for hackademic Royalists like him. In other circumstances, he'd have had you drawn and quartered for such insolence.

Karleigh said...

What a fun afternoon!

Disclaimer: The views and opinions expressed on the Foxhole Atheist Blog do not necessarily represent those of Atheism or all Atheists, seeing as how Atheism has no tenets, dogma or doctrines. So Suck it!