tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7021651777869638732.post997370365947496187..comments2023-10-29T08:29:32.845-05:00Comments on The Foxhole Atheist: 12-Step Programs are Religion?SgtHailehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11255551610277063922noreply@blogger.comBlogger23125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7021651777869638732.post-10157321450000298722014-09-05T22:28:25.850-05:002014-09-05T22:28:25.850-05:00a l l o w e da l l o w e dAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7021651777869638732.post-67018845148759157382012-09-13T00:08:47.834-05:002012-09-13T00:08:47.834-05:00I am a polite atheist. I don't ridicule people...I am a polite atheist. I don't ridicule people about their beliefs no matter how illogical they seem.<br />I'm also in a crystal meth anonymous group right now.<br />I have a sponsor and being able to call him at any hour really helped me get thru my 1st 30 days.<br />Happily, while he is Christian, he has other sponsees like me.<br />What he told us about a higher power is this...<br />"go take your cloths off and run up and down the sidewalk naked. In less than an hour, a higher power, driving a police car will haul your happy ass to jail."<br />So the gist is, don't stress over every little thing, study the book and steps - the rest will work itself out. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7021651777869638732.post-80697052890515454742012-06-23T08:58:02.989-05:002012-06-23T08:58:02.989-05:00Very ilinformed. There are many atheists doing wel...Very ilinformed. There are many atheists doing well in these programs....myself included. You are talking about a subject for which you seem to have done very little research. The goal of these programs is to help the addict. God is a tool. There are many others. On the success rate: that concerned me as well. However, I don't think that number represents the number of people who have actually completed the twelve steps and continued to practice the program. If someone stops taking their anti-depressants does that mean they don't work?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7021651777869638732.post-66082069724754378322011-07-06T18:51:42.568-05:002011-07-06T18:51:42.568-05:00AA is explicitly religious. It specfically require...AA is explicitly religious. It specfically requires religious conversion in the 12 steps. Read the big book chapter on atheists and agnostics. Read "How It Works". AA critizes non-believers as arrogant and dishonest. AA cites alleged defects of moral character as the root cause of addiction. When 12-step defenders claim their "program" is "spiritual, not religious", that is pure theological sophistry; this hokey formulation is a dodge which comes straight from the evangelical Oxford Group, which formed the basis of AA in the 1930s and promoted itself as "a movement, not a religion." Trying to "take what you can and leave the rest" as folks say about 12-step meetings (along with "just make your Higher Power a doorknob for now") is itself spiritually and psychogically dishonest, as well a logically false. It's cruel and dangerous to bamboozle struggling, desperate addicts with toxic nonsense.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7021651777869638732.post-66285120748653162632010-03-31T02:15:13.425-05:002010-03-31T02:15:13.425-05:00This has got to be a joke, although there are moro...This has got to be a joke, although there are morons out there who think like this. It's almost not worth a reply... So, instead of trying hard to reason with you, I will resort to this... Suck It.SgtHailehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11255551610277063922noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7021651777869638732.post-7842717578548102902010-03-30T23:41:51.690-05:002010-03-30T23:41:51.690-05:00i feel so bad for you. i dont even thinkyou were e...i feel so bad for you. i dont even thinkyou were even in the army because no true american wouldnt believe in GodAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7021651777869638732.post-23535975578879315362010-03-30T00:17:32.770-05:002010-03-30T00:17:32.770-05:00Religion means to have a belief in a deity that ut...Religion means to have a belief in a deity that utilizes faith and regulates conduct.<br /><br />Atheism has no belief in a deity. It has no need for faith. It rejects faith based reasoning. It has no doctrine to regulate conduct. The only thing needed to be considered an atheist is that you do not currently subscribe to a God belief. It's not a doctrine or a dogma, simply a qualifier. There is no atheist pope or supreme leader. Atheism is not synonymous with evolution, abiogenesis or the Big Bang Theory of cosmology. Atheism is not a positive claim that there are no Gods. It's a negative claim that denies existing God claims. Atheism is not a religion any more than "OFF" is a TV channel... If you'd like to continue this conversation then you can email me. Check the "Contact Us" tab at the top of the page. I'd appreciate it since this conversation has gotten off the topic of 12-Step programs. I'd like to allow this comment page to remain on track as much as possible. Thank you.SgtHailehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11255551610277063922noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7021651777869638732.post-48680547213347354072010-03-29T23:33:03.842-05:002010-03-29T23:33:03.842-05:00then why are you still an atheist? thats a religio...then why are you still an atheist? thats a religion tooAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7021651777869638732.post-68053889516771851552010-03-29T21:13:35.932-05:002010-03-29T21:13:35.932-05:00I'm still not sure this isn't a joke... Ho...I'm still not sure this isn't a joke... However, assuming I haven't read the Bible is a bad way to argue. You think I haven't because if I have, we'd be on the same page. Guess what, I have read the Bible. 3 times cover to cover, in two different languages.SgtHailehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11255551610277063922noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7021651777869638732.post-79868282394781918702010-03-29T20:44:19.647-05:002010-03-29T20:44:19.647-05:00i know what i believe is true because ive read the...i know what i believe is true because ive read the Holy Bible which is absolute truth. obviously you havent read it or you wouldnt say the thing you say on ur blog. ill continue to pray for you.<br /><br />For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7021651777869638732.post-42602224702253214932010-03-29T15:35:18.870-05:002010-03-29T15:35:18.870-05:00I got a weird feeling that the last comment was a ...I got a weird feeling that the last comment was a joke... If not however, I will answer it... What makes you think I didn't have Jesus Christ in my heart at one point? What makes you think I am somehow worse off now? How do you know what you believe is true? I know you think the things you believe are true, otherwise you wouldn't believe them. But how do you know?SgtHailehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11255551610277063922noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7021651777869638732.post-66400365463487883012010-03-29T14:47:46.497-05:002010-03-29T14:47:46.497-05:00I wouldn expect someon like you to understand. You...I wouldn expect someon like you to understand. You have to experience Jesus Christ in your life to understand. its all about faith and realizing that you cant do anything without Him in yourl ife. Im just sorry that ur going to hell but ill pray for you.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7021651777869638732.post-25964552938618495732010-03-29T08:43:10.258-05:002010-03-29T08:43:10.258-05:00Snatalie is right--we don't cure cancer patien...Snatalie is right--we don't cure cancer patients by asking them to give themselves over to a higher power. No real "disease" is treated this way. <br /><br />Penn and Teller brought up these same criticisms in their "Bullshit" show. Apparently there is also a non-theistic 12-step program that emphasizes taking responsibility, but when alcoholics are being sentenced in court to undergo rehab, the judges almost always send them to AA. Unfortunately the success rate of the non-theist one is about the same.Roxanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06921303128817745535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7021651777869638732.post-62611687545481988062010-03-27T10:11:32.993-05:002010-03-27T10:11:32.993-05:00Of course I was messing with you. We did make a l...Of course I was messing with you. We did make a lot of the same points though. But I think it's just as much as a coincidence that I used to bring up the Heliocentric Universe on the topic of scientific theories, and then Richard Dawkins did the same in his own book. Good atheists think alike. <br /><br />But as far as AA, it's just stupid pop-psychology. It's oversensitive and robs people of a sense of personal responsibility. It also robs them of the power needed to overcome addiction. I'm a former addict myself and AA failed me for the same reasons it fails most people. I've been half way writing a book called Atheists Anonymous for a while now about why AA is an ineffective system because of its reliance on theology and pop-psychology. <br /><br />I'll get that done someday...maybe.C. Allen Thompsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14090337256689142007noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7021651777869638732.post-50818881547178045472010-03-26T15:32:47.268-05:002010-03-26T15:32:47.268-05:00Ah i see what you mean. I just wish that this 12 s...Ah i see what you mean. I just wish that this 12 step think wasn't the one that is required. I can see why it is ineffective.snatalienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7021651777869638732.post-29363517959569861022010-03-26T15:09:55.314-05:002010-03-26T15:09:55.314-05:00C Allen Thompson...
Are you kidding or are you se...C Allen Thompson...<br /><br />Are you kidding or are you serious. I gave a quick skim through your writing and I didn't see any plagiarism. We are simply talking about the same subject.<br /><br />SNatalie...<br /><br />Regardless of how your body responds to the alcohol/drugs you still made the choice to do it in the first place. Sure, it's hard to quit. It's not as simple as putting down the bottle and doing something else instead. But that's not the point. There are a lot of choices out there that have hard to deal with consequences, but we don't consider them diseases. Also, if it were a disease then people without the alcohol gene would be immune. They are not.SgtHailehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11255551610277063922noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7021651777869638732.post-5992233633683237772010-03-26T15:03:43.868-05:002010-03-26T15:03:43.868-05:00There is a gene for addiction, especially alcoholi...There is a gene for addiction, especially alcoholism. However, having a gene for an addictive personality is not what constitutes a "disease." Alcoholism is not a disease because even if you have the gene it doesn't mean anything unless you decide to drink. "Decide" is the main word in that sentence. You might have a predisposition to cancer in your family due to genetics, but you don't choose cancer. It just happens to you. Alcoholism will not happen to you, even if you have the gene, unless you choose to drink. Not a disease.SgtHailehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11255551610277063922noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7021651777869638732.post-84932819397709948692010-03-26T15:00:59.922-05:002010-03-26T15:00:59.922-05:00Also, as much as it is a choice, for these people ...Also, as much as it is a choice, for these people once it's been done, it's very hard to stop and not do it. That is why it's a problem. You don't think that if they knew how to stop, they would? It's not as simple as just stopping. The body freaks out.snatalienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7021651777869638732.post-26310411065064082652010-03-26T14:57:23.727-05:002010-03-26T14:57:23.727-05:00I hate to say this, Alex, but plagiary is a pretty...I hate to say this, Alex, but plagiary is a pretty serious charge in this country ;)<br /><br />http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?v=app_2347471856&ref=profile&id=1816039967#!/note.php?note_id=120113262558C. Allen Thompsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14090337256689142007noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7021651777869638732.post-9459968504119482342010-03-26T14:49:55.070-05:002010-03-26T14:49:55.070-05:00I believe that addictions are diseases. They chang...I believe that addictions are diseases. They change your body. You become dependent to litterally function. It is kind of like cancer, but not totally. My husband is genetically shit out of luck. He abuses alchohol; he chose to yes, but that specific gene runs in his family. It is most strongly passed from father to son that from mother to son, etc. This is very very real and this is something that has been very difficult to handle. Alcoholics like my father in law have a disease. However he choses not to get "chemo" because it's too painful. And for an alcoholic, it kills them not to drink. In the end their disease will be what kills them though. AA does not treat alcoholism as a disease with it's bull shit 12 step program. Addictions need to be treated as the diseases they are and this whole 12 step as "god" for help thing is not doing that.snatalienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7021651777869638732.post-35402752588713278072010-03-26T14:02:45.384-05:002010-03-26T14:02:45.384-05:00First of all, thank you for sharing your side of t...First of all, thank you for sharing your side of the issue. Like I said, I don't have any experience with addiction in my personal life, so this is merely an argument from my observation, statistics and what the AA 12-step program says. The way you explained the feeling of addiction does sound like insanity. The problem is that AA tells you to feel helpless. By going to AA in the first place you're proving you're not helpless. You are not powerless against your addiction, you're powerful. You're taking back your life by any means. Whether or not AA works is not decided by how well you follow their steps but by how strong your willpower is. Your AA has not pushed you to accept Jesus as your personal lord and savior, but you're an exception to the rule. The standard AA, the ones my family and friends have attended, make you accept a higher power. They make you accept a God, because in their view your rehabilitation cannot be effective without the help of God. This sort of dependent variable that AA tries to insist sounds exactly like the Christian rhetoric of original sin. Even those AA's that don't push a specific God end up finding Christian churches to sponsor them and in turn the organization allows the church to preach to them. This sort of shameless proselytizing is just another way for AA to make you feel helpless and force you to give your life to Jesus. The instances where the state has forced people into religiously based AA treatment is an obvious violation of the 1st Amendment. There are many secular rehab organizations out there, but they don't have the funds that AA has, so nobody hears about them. They have the same success rates too. In the case where doctors can prescribe medication to cease your chemical need for alcohol, AA and Christian churches have been together on suppressing the medication. Even going as far as to push for the FDA to ban the drug! Their reasoning for this is that by having a medication that stunts alcohol addiction immediately, the patient will be unable to come to a love of God. End of Debate, right there. If you wish to respond further, please send me an email. I may be able to use this to write a follow up post. FoxholeAtheistBlog@yahoo.comSgtHailehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11255551610277063922noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7021651777869638732.post-21000808542750852792010-03-26T12:32:12.354-05:002010-03-26T12:32:12.354-05:00As an Atheist and a member of a 12 step-program I ...As an Atheist and a member of a 12 step-program I am slightly angered by this post. I'll get over it. I hope that other atheists who struggle with addiction will not take it all to heart - but I hope they find their own way. I REALLY want to go line by line and rebut each of your comments on the 12 steps, but I will focus on the insanity that is talked about in step 2. By your own admittance, you haven't felt the raging phenomena of craving. It is insanity to continue to do the same thing over and over even though it hurts you. (and it does hurt - in a pitiful, incomprehensible way). It is like having a desire to step in front of a bus. Fresh out of the hospital, arm in a sling the street calls to you "maybe this time you'll get it right..." You see the bus coming and you know it is gonna hurt like hell and that this time it might kill you, but you just cannot help yourself. As the bus approaches, you try to resist the urge, but at the last second the craving takes over and BAM. Then the raging phenomena of craving is in full swing. Next thing you know you are broken again. If that is not insane, then I don't know what is!<br />Seriously, I do not pray and I do not believe in one entity or universal power. I know that people do, but it is just like regular life: tradition, fear and availability play a big part in wanting to believe. I believe in chemical dependency and I know that I can battle the urge to drink by hanging out with sober people who share my struggle. I know that I have to do ALL the work to stay sober (they are doing the work but they attribute it to a god). I feel gratitude to AA for being there and allowing me to be an atheist. Yes, many know my non-belief and NONE have tried to prothelesize me in the slightest way toward the christian religion or any other. PEACEAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7021651777869638732.post-76518558482525429282010-03-25T06:17:48.125-05:002010-03-25T06:17:48.125-05:00Very well written. It is a cult. There is no doubt...Very well written. It is a cult. There is no doubt. I do believe there are some things within AA/CA/NA/WhateverA that can help people come to understand they need to get their shit together, but it is a cult, and they do make people feel as though they are nothing, and if they don't go to 870000000 meetings a day, they will die. That by writing down the names of every person who has ever pissed you off at some point in time in your life since day 1, every single person you have had any sort of sexual interaction with, etc. will help you heal from your "disease". It was when I got to my 5th step, and my sponsor told me I had done it wrong and I needed to redo it, I walked out. I dealt with the issues that caused me to use alcohol and some hard drugs a little too much. If it works for people, then they should use it, but always remember to think for themselves, on their own, just as you would wish someone who went to church would pick up the Bible and read it on their own, and then get back to us on their belief system. Peace.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com